Conversations With Cade Metz on the Rationalists

(Previously, previously.) New York Times reporter Cade Metz has been writing a book about the people who believed in AGI before it was cool. That's a subject that I think I know some things about, so we had some on-the-record conversations in 2025, which I'd like to publish here—for transparency's sake, not because a 32K-word transcript and recording dump is necessarily that interesting. The transcripts below have been edited for clarity and relevant hyperlinks have been inserted. (Hyperlinks in emails are in the original.) There are a few redactions indicated by "[...]" where either we went off the record or I wanted to cut something from this publication. 21 March 2025 (audio, albeit with some weird background noise because my phone was in my pocket while we were walking) CM: What's left out of my book is the philosophy, or at least a big part of the philosophy, meaning people like you and your community. People don't know how important this community is. It's an astounding story. ZMD: Unfortunately, I hate to say it—I don't want to be mean, but—I agree that this book is worth writing. That book idea is worth writing and, in fact, has been written at least once. Tom Chivers, have you heard of him? CM: Yeah, sure. ZMD: I don't think you're a good person to write this book, specifically because no one is going to talk to you, right? CM: Wow. ZMD: Right? Maybe I misunderstood the idea. CM: No, no. I mean, here's the way I think about it. You know, the first book was about people who believe in the idea of the neural network. And you follow these really important people. The second book is about the idea of what we now call AGI and the people who believe in this. Right? And most people did not. And in so many ways, this belief brought it about, right? ZMD: Yeah. CM: Or brought about something that people think is on that path. And I would argue I'm a good person to do that. ZMD: Well, no, but to be specific, as a journalist, you need lots and lots of sources. And inso